Here I forward a post:
Brothers and sisters:
Peace to you in the Lord! My name is Guoer. I post this massage mainly for your help to solve my confusion. I began to believe in the Lord with my parents since I was little. I often hear the pastors preach, “
But recently, when I studied the Bible, I found the Lord Jesus said, “he that has seen me has seen the Father; … Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works” (John 14:9–10). “I and my Father are one” (Jhn 10:30). I felt confused about it. According to what the pastors say, since God is the Trinity, then the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. But why did the Lord Jesus say that He and the Father are one? Is the Lord Jesus the Father or the Son? I just couldn’t figure it out. So I asked the pastors and elders in our church, but they didn’t give me a satisfactory answer. They just told me that the Trinity was a very profound mystery. Now, I hope you could help me to dispel my confusion. Looking forward to your response.
Hello, Guoer. I also began to believe in Jesus with my grandpa when I was little. My grandpa has believed in the Lord for forty years. He said the whole religious world has all along held fast to the concept of the Trinity, and that pastors and elders certainly can’t be wrong. And moreover, the Bible records, “Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Mat 28:19). “And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible to you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:35–36). Guoer, have you read it yet? The Lord Jesus called God in heaven the Father, and taught us to spread the gospel in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Doesn’t it show that God is the Trinity? Is there anything to doubt about it?
Yeah, Alison is right. The pastors and elders indeed teach us like this. Don’t worry, Guoer. This concept can’t be wrong.
I don’t agree with your opinion. I think the concept of the Trinity may not be right. For Genesis 1 said that in the beginning the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters rather than that the Triune Spirit moved on the face of the waters. Moses directly heard the voice of Jehovah and was many times given revelations by Jehovah. But He had never told the Israelites that Jehovah was the Trinity, nor had He ever said that it was the Trinity leading them to cross the Red Sea. Besides, those ancient saints and prophets such as Job, Daniel, David and Samuel had never said that God was composed of three distinct persons.
Isaiah 43:10–13 records, “You are my witnesses, said the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior. I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore you are my witnesses, said the LORD, that I am God. Yes, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?” From these verses, we can clearly see that Jehovah personally taught Israelites that He is the only true God and that there is no other God beside Himself. People in the age of the Old Testament even knew God is the unique true God. Why did the concept of the Trinity come into being afterward? I think this concept can’t be right.
Mo Yan, how can you be so confused? My grandpa said the concept of the Trinity stemmed from when the Lord Jesus worked. According to related records, at the Council of Nicaea in 300 A.D., the concept of the Trinity was finally established after many religious scholars argued about God’s unicity and multiplicity. From then on, this concept was passed down: The Father is Jehovah, the Son is the Lord Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is only the Holy Spirit. Do you understand now?
This concept didn’t exist in the beginning but was concluded based on the saying of “Father and Son” and on the records of some verses. It comes from our notions and imagination. But is this imagination in accordance with the Lord’s will? Is there any basis of the Lord’s word? I’m afraid that none of us can clearly explain it.
What you are talking about is well grounded. They all seem to make sense. But which one is more accurate?
Excuse me, brothers and sisters. In the past, I also didn’t figure out this question. But later, through reading a book and hearing brothers and sisters’ fellowship, this question was resolved.
Baihe, please share it with us quickly.
Really? Tell us, please.
Just now, Mo Yan fellowships that the people in the age of the Old Testament all knew God is unique. This communication conforms to the Bible. The concept of the Trinity didn’t exist indeed at that time. The saying of the “Triune God,” as Alison said, was established through reasoning by many religious scholars at a conference after the Lord Jesus completed His work. But many people still have such confusion: Since the Lord Jesus called God in heaven by the name of the Father, and also said “I and my Father are one,” then is the Lord Jesus the Son or the Father? If He is the Son, how can He be one with the Father?
On this issue, let’s first take a look at some verses, “Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works” (Jhn 14:8–10). Here we see that Philip didn’t know the Lord Jesus, so he treated the Lord Jesus and heavenly God as two Gods, thinking that the Lord Jesus had a Father in heaven. That is why he asked the Lord to show them the Father. But the Lord Jesus corrected his mistake, and told him that “I am in the Father, and the Father in me,” that “I and my Father are one,” and that “he that has seen me has seen the Father.” That is to say, the Lord Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the incarnate God Himself, not the Son of God.
Let’s turn to Mark: Someone asked the Lord Jesus which is the first commandment of all? The Lord answered, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord” (Mak 12:29). Why did the Lord Jesus put special stress on this commandment? Isn’t it because He meant us to understand that God is the unique God Himself? In the time of creation, there is only one Spirit of God. Jehovah said He is the only true God. The Lord Jesus also said God is the only One. It shows that God never mentioned the saying of the Trinity. The concept of “Triune God” is totally groundless.
Yeah, either Jehovah or the Lord Jesus told us that God is unique. And the Lord taught us more than once, “I am in the Father, and the Father in me” (Jhn 14:10). “I and my Father are one” (Jhn 10:30). How did I not understand?
I also came to know that God is originally the only one after hearing brothers and sisters’ communication. If God is the Trinity and has three distinct persons, then which one of them created the heavens and earth and all things? Who of them rules over the heavens and earth and all things? And how can the Spirit in separate persons be made one? Isn’t this contradictory? I will share with you a passage of word. I believe you will understand more clearly after reading it.
“God is a Spirit, but He is able to become flesh and live among men, as well as to be above all things. His Spirit is all-inclusive and omnipresent. He can simultaneously be in the flesh and throughout the universe. Since all people say that God is the only one true God, then there is a single God, divisible at will by none! God is only one Spirit, and only one person; and that is the Spirit of God. … When Jesus called God in heaven by the name of Father as He prayed, this was done only from the perspective of a created man, only because the Spirit of God had clothed Himself as an ordinary and normal man and had the exterior cover of a created being. Even if within Him was the Spirit of God, His exterior appearance was still that of an ordinary man; in other words, He had become the ‘Son of man’ of which all men, including Jesus Himself, spoke. Given that He is called, He is a person (whether man or woman, in any case one with the exterior shell of a human being) born into a normal family of ordinary people. Therefore, Jesus calling God in heaven by the name of Father was the same as how you at first called Him Father; He did so from the perspective of a man of creation. Do you still remember the Lord’s Prayer that Jesus taught you to memorize? ‘Our Father in heaven….’ He asked all man to call God in heaven by the name of Father. And since He too called Him Father, He did so from the perspective of one who stands on an equal footing with you all. …After Jesus went away, this idea of the Father and the Son was no longer. This idea was only appropriate for the years when Jesus became flesh; under all other circumstances, the relationship is one between the Lord of creation and a created being when you call God Father. There is no time at which this idea of the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can stand; it is a fallacy rarely seen through the ages and does not exist!” (“Does the Trinity Exist?”).
From this passage, we can see that God is originally the only one Spirit, who can direct the entire universe and can become flesh to live among man. When God is incarnated, the incarnate God can still carry out His own work. Because the incarnate God is God Himself and He is a flesh in which the Spirit of God is realized. He can express what God has and is and God’s disposition. Just like the Lord Jesus, His exterior is an ordinary flesh, but His substance is. His word carries authority and power, and once spoken, things are done. When the Lord Jesus just said, “Lazarus, come forth” (Jhn 11:43), Lazarus was raised from the dead and walked out from his tomb; when the Lord Jesus rebuked the wind and sea, then the sea became calm.
The reason that “Father and Son” is spoken of in the Bible is because God would do redemptive work in the age of the New Testament. But the Spirit couldn’t directly accomplish the work of crucifixion, and it could only be done through God’s Spirit assuming the flesh. Therefore, God came to earth from heaven, and His Spirit was realized in the flesh, that is, God’s Spirit lived in the flesh to accomplish all His work of divinity. In this way, the Father (the Spirit) lived in the flesh and the flesh expressed the will of the Father (the Spirit). When the Spirit in heaven called the Lord Jesus the beloved Son, it was God testifying His incarnate flesh in the position of the Spirit and giving testimony about Himself. When the Lord Jesus in the flesh called God in heaven the Father, He did it in the position of the flesh. That doesn’t prove that He is the Son of God’s Spirit in heaven. How can God have descendants like man? So, the saying of the “Father” and of the “Son” only existed in the period when God became flesh. In truth, the God in the flesh and the Spirit are one God, and it is just because of the incarnation that They separated Themselves between heaven and earth. After God fulfilled His work in the flesh and the flesh left, there was no longer the saying of the “Father” and of the “Son.” All in all, God is absolutely not the Trinity, God is forever the only one, and He is forever the only true God.
Your communication brightened my heart. It turns out that the Lord Jesus is the embodiment of God’s Spirit. When the Lord Jesus called God in heaven by the name of the Father, He did it from the perspective of the flesh, and it is not that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God. After the Lord Jesus was crucified and completed His work in the flesh, the concept of the “Father” and of the “Son” did not exist. Either in the Age of Law when God worked in the spiritual body or in the Age of Grace when God became flesh to work, it is all work done by one God. The concept of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit doesn’t exist at all. God is the only one true God. Baihe, is that right?
Yes! God can carry out His work in the spiritual body or in the flesh. There is only one God and one Spirit, after all.
Now I also understand that God can be named both Jehovah and Jesus; He can create the world as well as save all mankind; they are all works performed in different ages by the same God; the Lord Jesus is God Himself, He can be called God in heaven or the Father on an equal footing with a created being. From this I can see how humble and hidden God is and how amiable and lovely He is. Thank the Lord! I really have gained so much today.
The Trinity is the concept widely known throughout the whole religious world. How can it hold no ground? Like three glasses of water, my grandpa said, when they were mixed together, couldn’t they be made one?
Water can be mixed together, but how can a material object be compared with the Creator? I think this interpretation doesn’t quite fit.
Yeah, that’s just our groundless imagination. How can we divide God at will? On this question, I will share another passage of word: “Still some may say: The Father is the Father; the Son is the Son; the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and in the end, They will be made one. Then how should you make Them one? How can the Father and the Holy Spirit be made one? If They were inherently two, then no matter how They are joined together, would They not remain two parts? When you say making Them one, isn’t that simply joining two separate parts to make one whole? But were They not two parts before being made whole? Each Spirit has a distinct substance, and two Spirits cannot be made into a single one. The Spirit is not a material object and is unlike anything else in the material world. As men see it, the Father is one Spirit, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit yet another, then the three Spirits mix like three glasses of water into one whole. Is not that then the three made one? This is an erroneous explanation! Is this not splitting up God? How can the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all be made one? Are They not three parts each of different natures?” (“Does the Trinity Exist?”).
Only one God exists in the universe and all things. Jehovah (the Father) is God’s Spirit; the Lord Jesus (the Son) is Jehovah God’s Spirit incarnate, whose substance is still God’s Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is even more so God’s Spirit. Their substance is one Spirit. God’s Spirit has been one all along. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of creation, the Spirit of Jehovah, the Spirit in the Lord Jesus, the sevenfold intensified Spirit, the Spirit ruling over all things in the universe, they are all one Spirit. The Spirit differs from any kind of object in the material world. Two or three Spirit can never be made one Spirit. That’s impossible. As we thought about it, the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit even the other. Don’t we divide God into three? God is the only One, and God’s Spirit has only one person. He is the only Ruler of the heavens and earth, and is the only true God in the universe. This is the unchanging fact since time immemorial. Therefore, the Trinity has never existed from the beginning to the end. The so-called biblical basis of which we’ve spoken can’t justify that God has three persons. It can only be said that God works and speaks from different perspectives, in different ways, and in different realms. This is the truth.
Your fellowship is indeed well-grounded and fit with the truth. But I must ask my grandpa, so you go on …
I got it. The concept of the Trinity we’ve been clinging to turns out a fallacy. Thank the Lord. I’ve gained a great deal today.
Today’s fellowship really edifies me. I’ve believed in the Lord my whole life, but have divided God for a whole life. Alas, I truly let the Lord down.
Thanks for God’s guidance. I realized that the concept of the Trinity doesn’t hold water. It comes from our notions and imagination. I’ll share what I’ve gained today with my parents right away. Good-bye, everyone!
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